When Are You No Longer a Newbie?
On tonight’s episode we’ll be asking you…
When are you not considered a newbie to jeeping?
Can you overheat your transfer case running all day in 4low?
How do you drop off a ledge, neutral or in gear? (must be a standard transmission)
This episode is available on YouTube. Just search for Jeep Talk Show on YouTube. And when you find us, like and subscribe. I know I get sick of hearing that, but I found out recently that if you say like, like, like and subscribe, something that YouTube can identify that you’re telling the audience to like it or subscribe it, the little button, the like and subscribe button in the YouTube video gets highlighted and gets bigger and it acts, activates just by me saying it. Cause I was thinking there was some sort of little thing I needed to do. Nope, just gotta say it. So you’ll be hearing me say that at least long enough for me to get used to seeing that little button jump out on the YouTube video. So don’t want to join our Zoom room. Well, good Lord, you should, but I understand. It gets a little frightening in here sometimes. You can watch us live on Tuesdays at 7.30 PM central time at jeeptalkshow.com slash live. Yep, it’s a YouTube video. So watch it on your phone, watch it anywhere you are, man, I guess you could watch it while you’re driving, but we don’t agree with doing that. I mean, unless you’re in a test level full self driving. Hey, I’m Tony and I’ll be your host tonight for this round table episode. If you’re new to the round table, this is your place that you can join our community to talk about things that matter to you in the Jeep world. You can join the recording by signing up for our newsletter, just go to jeeptalkshow.com slash contact and find out how. All right, on tonight’s episode, we’ll be asking you, when are you not considered a newbie to jeeping? You guys let me know, have to let me know if we’ve asked this before. I don’t think so. And I thought it was a really cool question. I mean, it’s probably the number of ducks you have to collect is what I’m thinking.
Another question we have here, and I thought this was a good one too. And these came in from our listeners, the viewers that are sending these in. Can you overheat your transfer case running all day in four low? I picture that’s a John Lee question. What do you want to bet? How do you drop off a ledge neutral or in gear? And I’m thinking this must be a question for a Jeep with a standard transmission. As I can’t imagine putting my automatic in neutral, this will go down a ledge.
So, and if we get to it, what scanner do you use?
Now, they say for figuring out the idiot lights. And I don’t know of any Jeeps that come with idiot lights these days. So I’m thinking this must be like an XJ question. I can’t remember if TJ’s even came with idiot lights, but then, and I would think that you pretty much have to have something that’s newer than a 1997 Jeep because you want to be able to get into the OBD2. Although they may have made some scanners for OBDT, the original OBDT, but we’ll get into that here in a minute. So, you know, you can submit your questions through a round table. Just go to jeeptalkshow.com slash contact to find out how. Are you ready? It’s time for the Jeep Talk Show with host Tony, Josh, Wendy, and Chuck.
So I stopped talking and I realized I didn’t put my headphones on.
(laughs) All right, whether you’re a diehard Jeep enthusiast or just starting to explore the world of off-roading, we’re thrilled to have you as part of our discussion. Please consider joining the discussion by being a part of our Zoom meeting. Just go to jeeptalkshow.com slash contact to find out how to join. All right, Zoom people, please mention your first name and location the first time you speak. Doesn’t apply to you saying hello to the hello Zoom people. So let’s do that right now. Hello, Zoom people.
I pressed the button, didn’t I? No, I pressed the wrong button. I pressed a button though. All right, hello, Zoom people.
Hello. – Did you press the button that time? – I can hear you, so yes.
All righty, so let’s get into this. Everybody’s really enthusiastic about being here. I mean, did every one of you guys go through a hurricane like I did? You need to be grateful to be alive because you didn’t have to live that harrowing experience. Actually, I slept through most of it, so it wasn’t that big a deal. When are you considered not to be a newbie in jeeping anymore? Did we ask this one in a prior episode?
– I don’t remember that one. – Good, I thought it was an excellent question because I’m sure there are people out there that are new to jeeping that like to know whenever they’re gonna get some respect. – Rick from Arkansas.
I’ve been doing this about two years, so I still consider myself a newbie because I’m still learning every time I go out. I learn, I ask lots of questions.
Whenever there’s somebody there, like the four by four 101 people, whoever they were,
I tell them, treat me like I don’t know a thing and tell me what to do because I wanna learn. There’s my way that I think I need to do it, but I’m always open to learn something new just in case. – Oh yeah. – I’m doing it wrong. Like for example, here a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about how to hit a ledge, whether you hit it straight on or at an angle. – That’s an angle. – Yeah, I thought it was straight on. I’m glad that somebody asked that question. – Right, and I learned because I was always trying to, especially if there was a V notch in the shelf or whatever, I was trying to shoot that V notch because in my mind, I’m thinking I’m keeping my pumpkins and everything away from everything, but I’m constantly learning. I still consider myself a newbie even after two years. I think part of it may have to do with how much you go willing. If you only go willing once a year,
you might be a newbie for a little longer if you’re going once or twice a month. – Well, this is Greg from Unofficial Use Only in Michigan. And I’m a seasoned professional. I’ve been doing this for well over 20 years and I still consider myself a newbie because I always want to learn something new. – Every time I’m out? – And we always can. Yeah, absolutely. – Yep, every time I’m out, I might learn a new trick, a new trade, I might learn something new about a new vehicle.
So we’re all newbies, right?
Enjoy it. If you never stop learning, you’ve given up. – Yeah, this is Larry from St. Louis. Never foul when a guy jumps out and says, “I’m the expert.” (both laughing) – Yeah, Dan from Chicagoland. Yeah, same thing.
The minute you think you know it all is when you find out the hard way you don’t.
– Has anybody had an instance that they recall that they thought they knew everything and then were very quickly reminded that they didn’t? – Said no guy ever.
(both laughing) – No, I mean, you say that, but the fact is, I’ve had a Jeep since 92 and know my YJ front and back. I was always learning. Again, I’m gonna learn. I get in my bus and I’m driving it and I’m like, “Oh, I’ve got this trail. I’m following JKs, not JKUs, and it’s not the same line. It’s not the same line as my YJ, and I’ve got my fenders.” You know, I’m always learning in my new Jeep. And like Greg was saying, you’re always learning. Like I’m going to attempt things. I’m going to go after something and I’m gonna learn the hard way nine times out of 10. That’s who I am. I’m gonna learn the hard way. But I’m learning every time I’m gonna learn, accept my mistakes, accept my faults, and educate myself on, yep, you’ve got to learn these lines better because I can’t follow my friends in JKs. A lot of places like that. – So what you’re saying is you’re not a professional, but we still don’t want to follow you.
(laughing) – You can follow me and you learn. Because again, if you see, if I’m following a JK or a JLU, a JKU in front of me, I can see their mistakes. I can see what I do not want to do or what I’m now larger than need to do. That’s the way I look at that. If you learn from who you’re following, what you’re looking at, and you educate yourself on it. Every time you’re out there, you’re educating yourself because trails change.
I hit the same trails. I’m out three, four, five times a month on the same trails. And every single time I’m out there, they’re changing.
I can expect the exact same rule every time.
– I think it’s a good idea though. This is Chip from Illinois. I think it’s a great idea that we continue to learn.
It’s when, Tony, you asked if we ever got in trouble. When I’ve gotten myself in trouble, it’s typically because I glance at the trail in front of me, it looks easy. I take my eyes off the trail. I’m looking at the map or I’m doing something inside the Jeep. And I’m thinking, “Oh, I’m just gonna go “between these two trees, but I don’t see that stump.” Or, “I didn’t see that roots sticking out.” Or, “I didn’t pay attention to the trail.” And you can get yourself in trouble really quick if you’re not watching close. And Travis, like you said, you’ve got the Jeep in front of you. You’re gonna learn one of two things. I need to do what he did or I’m not doing that, right? I mean, they’re like, “Okay, so I try to pick “another two-door. “I try to pick another JK that I’m following. “If I can, I love to follow a couple guys “that are much better wheelers than I am. “And I’ll learn from them picking their lines. “But I get behind a gladiator “or I’m with somebody that’s less experienced.” Or, “They’re gonna pick a different line. “And what line works for them may or may not work for me.” So, I think we’re always learning.
If we don’t keep an open mind to that, I mean, learning how to drive on rocks that move underneath your wheels versus driving on the solid rock that we’ve got at Moab versus going through mud or getting up a steep ledge. And is it a grass or dirt ledge or is it a rock ledge? There’s so many different aspects. And that’s what’s fun about wheeling is those new experiences. – Right, it’s always changing.
– I say that the minute you stop learning is when you become dangerous.
– Yeah.
– It’s all educational. The more you wheel, you’re always learning. And if you don’t accept and own that,
are we all newbies? No, I have skills, I can teach others, but I am always learning. That’s the way I look at it. I can help people on the trail. I can guide in situations and recoveries and different scenarios. But if I say I’ve got it locked down, yeah, no, that’s a lie. And I’m lying to myself and I will fail. I’m gonna tip stuff that I don’t know because if I don’t, I’m not gonna learn from those failures and mistakes.
– Very, very cool. So John Lee, I can’t help but think that you probably have a situation where you messed up and it was a good life lesson, jeeping life lesson.
– Really?
What led you to that conclusion?
– On road or off road? – Yeah, I was gonna say, I can think of the one where he drove for a long way, he’s locked.
– Yeah, I think there’s a, if you’re out wheeling,
there’s a machine gun volley of lessons coming your way, whether you want them to or not. So you’re going to learn what not to do, you’re going to learn what to do. And I think the locker was definitely a big one.
You know, just learning lines that were kind of stupid from the last time you tried an obstacle. So when you go try it again, you’re not kind of doing the same dumb thing or whatever. So I think that if I was gonna say the lessons that I’ve learned the most is from a mistake, is I believe it or not, it’s not the locker thing, it’s wheeling with too much air in the tires. So when I first went out to the off road park, the very first time, we stuck to the park roads and didn’t really get off, I didn’t even know what air inbound was. And so we did the whole day on street pressures.
And I almost decided to jeep and button for me on that first day, I was like, this is ridiculous, simple.
I think that was probably the biggest one, at least early on. (computer mouse clicking) – That’s huge, that air in down for beginners.
– Yeah, but they can be reluctant if they don’t have onboard air or access to air on the trail, they let the air out of their tires and they’re like, well, how am I ever gonna get them filled back up? And am I safe to drive down the road? – That’s, I do not disagree. And that’s, you know, it’s again, it’s educating when you’re out on the trails,
where I wheel 99% of the time is you worry, and there is air at the outpost that is free, if people are shown where a button is to press the machine and it’s free,
but it’s just, you educate them and even you’ll tell them, hey, you know, you can drop down, you know, to 15, you can drop down, you know, I’m running 12 on non beadlocks,
you can do it, but they’re very nervous about it. Everyone’s very nervous about it that first time, but once they’d go through it, like John was saying, once you go through it, once you realize the comfort level, the grip level and the knowledge level that you get from air in down, you will be greatly impressed. And I am still running with my rear locked, they are locked, I tried doing the slow reverse, figure eight didn’t get it, it’ll be in the shop here soon.
Oh, just stick a screwdriver there and pop it over, you’ll be fine. I think the funny thing you mentioned about the air pressure,
the air pressure lesson learned, because I think Kevin who’s on here, I mean, he’s got a fairly built up Jeep and been wheeling forever, and he took off down a pretty decent trail there at Hidden Falls at like 35 PSI in his little TJ. I think Andrew behind them was watching that, they just bounced like all over the place. It was a pretty big, it was pretty funny. So he can have a long time, so I got to air down even if you’ve been wheeling a lot.
– So somebody tell many newbies that are listening or watching this video or listening to this video, why you air down, that’s just a quick synopsis on why you air down. – When you air down, you not only increase your contact pressure to the earth, which means there’s more of your tire on the ground, which will translate to better traction, but it also softens the blow. It allows the tire to become part of the suspension so that every bump and crack on that trail, you don’t necessarily feel. So it gives you a softer, more stable ride. And because you have a much larger contact patch with the earth, you get more traction than the vehicles capable
without airing down. – Would there ever be a time that you would do that while you’re on road or on maybe a different type of surface besides off-road surfaces? – Yeah, same thing. If the roads are very wet or they’re very icy, if you air down, you will get more traction because same thing. – Oh, interesting. Yeah.
– Do that on snow too, just to help disperse your weight so that way you’re not breaking through so far. – I bet you that would be important if you’re ice fishing. – You’re out on the lake maybe a little, and you’re not quite sure if it’s frozen yet or not.
(laughs) – Yeah, yeah, don’t do that. I think if I’m not sure, I’m not on there. – Yeah.
All right, anybody else? When do you know you’re no longer a newbie in jeeping? It sounds like the consensus here is is that you’re always a newbie. And if you’re not– – Then you’re conceited. – You are doing it right.
(laughs) – I don’t know, I think I would argue the part that takes the newbie off of you is the number of mistakes you make.
So you’re not saying that you’re not a newbie meaning you’re a professional, but you’re not a newbie meaning you’re baptized, right? So first time you break a bead or the first time you fall off an obstacle or the first time you make a mistake, that’s kind of what it is. Becoming not a newbie is not becoming a superstar behind the wheel, like champion rock roller. It’s just making enough mistakes.
– So that’s an interesting point. You mentioned a professional. Would you guys also say that even the people that are literally professionals, that get paid to go off-road, that they would even be considered newbies, but maybe a different level of newbie? – Well, I’m a professional. I get paid to go off-road and I still consider myself a newbie
because I always want to learn more. – If you follow Ultra Port, I’ll share a camera. – I get paid to teach other people off-road and I still want to learn more every time I go out. – If you follow Ultra Port on, watch Shannon Campbell, he rolls his stuff or blows it up almost every single time he goes out and he’s like the OG. So you never stop making mistakes. You just learn from the mistakes.
– Well, but there’s also wheelers that like to go out and break shit every time they go out, right? I mean, it’s like that clickbait stuff that you get where you see a Jeep going up a hill that you’re like, oh shit, and then they roll it over and everybody’s wanting to watch that video.
There’s guys that they want that adrenaline rush and they’ve apparently got a deep pocket book or a extreme patience for pain and they’ll roll it or they’ll, I mean, that’s just a different level of wheeling. Then there’s other people that go out and don’t want to put a scratch on their Jeep.
And then there’s a lot of people in between. – Pete’s from Wisconsin. And just because you’re paid to do something doesn’t make you a perfection.
(laughing)
(silence) All right, well, let’s move on to our next question. This one I thought was interesting and I could kind of understand how this might be a consideration, a concern. Can you overheat your transfer case running all day and for a low? Maybe it doesn’t have to do with the duration. Maybe it has to do with how fast you’re going and the oil, if you’re off, if your nose up or nose down and the oil is not in the right place. So yeah, how can you overheat your transfer case?
– Can’t.
– That’s just, that one word answer is just good to podcasting.
(laughing) – So your transfer case, well, so it’s an open-ended question. It depends on what type of transfer case you have. There are transfer cases that have clutches in them and yes, you can overheat them.
The standard Jeep transfer case
from the 40s all the way through the 4xE and the 392.
And there’s a couple other random ones. There’s a Grand Cherokee and the Hemi Grand Cherokee, the earlier ones, they had clutches in the transfer case. But the traditional transfer case that the vast majority of Jeepers are used to is an MP231 or an MP242.
And then some of the older ones. But the MP231 or the MP232, they do not have clutches. All they have is a chain and a couple of gears.
So there’s no way to overheat it. And the fluid that goes inside of them, for the vast majority of the time it’s ATF plus four, which is the automatic transmission fluid that is in your transmission, that doesn’t start to cook until it’s above to, well over 200 degrees.
The clutches in a transmission will start to cook above 200 degrees, but there’s no clutches in your transfer case. So there’s no way to overheat the traditional transfer case we’re used to. And then even if you step into the monster transfer cases like an Atlas, same thing. It’s gear to gear, there’s no chain. So again, there’s no way to overheat it. Inside the MP241 and the MP242,
there is a plastic shim and you could theoretically overheat that, but it would be close to 400 degrees. And driving around in four low all day isn’t gonna do that unless you’re pinging it off the rev limiter at the same time. And if you ping your vehicle off the rev limiter all day long, you’re gonna overheat your engine and smoke your transmission way before you hurt your transfer case. So hopefully that’s better than the one word answer. – It is. So let me ask you this. This is not really part of that question, but I’m curious. How do you stretch a chain on a MP231? If it’s not heat related.
– So it’s not heat related, it’s torque related. It’s the same thing as most everybody who’s an adult at this age probably rode a BMX or a 10 speed or a mountain bike at some point in their life or even a motorcycle.
Those chains stretch over time, even on your BMX. When you’re pumping to get up a big hill, over time that chain wears a little bit and it stretches just a little tiny bit because it’s thin metal. The MP231 or the MP232, it’s essentially the same type of a chain, it just has a lot more links in it to handle the torque load of an off-road vehicle that weighs several thousand pounds.
They can still stretch and the pins that hold each link together can start to wear. But it’s not a heat related thing, it’s just– – Usage, yeah. – Usage, metal on metal. So those chains do stretch in all of your chain driven transfer cases. So it is a service item, it’s just one of those service items that you might never have to service. – Right.
You’re chopping Roger. – You’re really choppy Roger, stop talking. – So Greg, I know that they make a larger chain for the 230, the 231. Do you think– – Yeah, the 231 and the MP242. So the 242 was found earlier on in the XJs and some of the other vehicles, it was never in a Wrangler until the Rubicon. So the original rock track transfer case is a 242
with a different gear.
That’s why it’s four to one versus 272 to one. So it’s also found in one ton trucks and three quarter ton trucks all over the world from GM to Dodge to everybody.
– Because I have a 242 in my garage that I took out when I got the Atlas and I took it out because the chain kept stretching on them. And it just pissed me off and I said, screw it, no chain. – Yeah, it’s pretty surprising that you had a chain stretch more than once. – I think I replaced it three times.
– Were you using factory style parts or were you getting the cheap Chinese aftermarket parts? – It’s been a long time since I got it. I don’t think I was getting the Chinese one. If I did, maybe the first time, but not after that. Actually, I probably didn’t because that’s a lot of work changing that chain out. – Oh yeah, it’s no fun. – I don’t know if you can hear me now, but that’s why I was asking, is it a combination of chain stretch and gear wear? Cause I mean, sometimes the teeth that wear out and if you put a new chain on a worn out sprocket,
– Yeah, you get the same thing. And a lot of people do that, they don’t replace the gears.
So it could have been both, but yeah, typically, the only time that they really stretch is,
you can drive around. I mean, there’s people that put 300 and 400,000 miles on those transfer cases and never have chain stretch. The guys that have the chain stretch or the gears,
and these are people who off-road a lot and never have a problem. The ones that tend to have a problem are the ones that are a little heavier on the throttle.
Or when you are in four low, you gas it a little bit more and you’re doing a lot of higher speed. You know, four low, really you should be under 15 miles an hour.
And I understand 100% that some vehicles will go way faster. In fact, like my Jeep will do 40 in four low.
You shouldn’t do it.
But the guys that go a little bit faster, because every time you, even when you lift off the throttle, you’re changing the torque load from acceleration to deceleration rapidly.
And any of those rapid changes are what tend to wear them out faster.
So like I’ve worn out a chain,
but at the time I was a really heavy foot, but I wasn’t a gentle, heavy foot, right? There’s a way to slowly accelerate and get to speed. And there’s a way to floor it and decelerate rapidly too, right? And the rapid changes in acceleration are what are more detrimental to the life of the chain and the life of all your other parts.
But you can, back to the original question,
yes, if you’re in four low and you’re going fast,
you can definitely overheat your transmission. You can definitely overheat your engine, but the transfer case itself is very difficult to overheat. – Oh, very good. Very good to know.
All right, anybody else got an answer or a question before we move on to our next question?
– Well, call me on the crap and tell me, I don’t know what I’m talking about. – Question on that, because with my Forex E, I run, well, initially I was running four high off-road. Well, because I don’t need, I never felt the need for four low, but my transmission started overheating. I run in four low the entire time, and I’m not accelerating, I wasn’t running four high, four speeds or acceleration or anything along that line. These trails don’t need four low. – Well, they do. – I’m taking, and I’ve learned that because now I– – So that’s another thing, that’s why I say, yeah, four low is anything 15 or below, even if you’re on a dirt road. Yeah, even if you’re on a dirt road, like a two-track even,
if you’re consistently doing 15 or below,
I would advise everyone to be in four low if you’re not on pavement. And the reason for that is your transmission, if you put your transfer case in four low, and then you put your transmission in first gear or second gear, and even if you have an automatic, you can still put it in first or second gear.
If you actually lock the trans in first or second gear, the torque converter doesn’t spin. And if the torque converter is not spinning all the time, you’re not building heat in the transmission. So when you go off road, even if it’s the gentlest, smoothest ride in the world, but if you’re going at a slow speed, you’re not getting airflow across your radiator and across your engine and transmission, so they’re not cooling as fast.
And if the torque converter is spinning all the time, you’re going to see really high transmission temperatures first way before you see them in the engine.
And most of the modern transmissions are designed to operate at 175 and less.
So if you’re consistently running that thing at 220 and 230, you’re just cooking your transmission.
So in four low, in first or second gear, the torque converter will not spin, will not generate extra heat, and your transmission will stay much cooler.
– No, what about third, second? Like I’ll switch into manual. Currently, when I’m off road, I’m in four low and I’m in manual, and I’m gonna be third, fourth gear. – Yeah, so if you’re up to the point where you’re third, fourth gear,
then you should just be in, maybe you should be in four high and locking it in first or second.
– Because four high, and that’s what I’ve never, I’ve never attempted four high off road and putting it in manual. I just said, oh, it’s good,
just run with what I’ve got. The four low, once I’ve done what I’ve done with four low, I’ve never once had a reheat issue, not one.
But the four high, I never once switched over to manual and it was changing my gears. – Yeah. – So let me ask you this about the torque converter. You’re talking about the torque converter being locked. Is that the standard thing it does whenever you switch from automatic to manual, that it locks it? – No, no.
So on the earlier Jeeps, like a TJ or the early JKs, the valve body itself did it. So the valve body and the transmission did it. The newer ones, it’s actually in the computer because the newer transmissions are everything from,
what was it, 12 and newer? I think it’s 12.
The computer controls the transmission 100%. – Okay. – So the computer tells the newer ones what to do. The older ones, the valve body told it what to do. The valve body is a thing inside the transmission that changes the flow. But yeah, in all of your older ones, all the way through, like the JK, well, we’ll just say JK line,
early JK line, anything pre-36.
The,
when you put it in four low,
the pump speed in the transmission changes.
And when you manually lock it in first or second gear, and this is only for automatic people, but if you manually lock it in first or second gear,
because of the pump speed and the rotation, it locks the torque converter. So it’s not spinning the clutches in the torque converter. As soon as you take it out of first or second, and you put it in third or fourth or fifth or sixth or seventh or eighth, the torque converter, the clutch is internal of the torque converter can spin. And when those are spinning and rubbing up against each other, they generate heat.
So it’s harder with the newer ones because they’re all computer controlled, but it’s a design characteristic of Jeep and has been forever that in first and second gear in low, the torque converter is locked.
And it’s purely for that reason to not generate transmission heat, so that you can drive across the entire Gobi desert without cooking your transmission. Because if you tried to do,
if you went out to Glamis and you tried to drive around, and Glamis isn’t that big, but let’s say you went to the Sahara and you decided to drive across the Sahara and you did it in four high at 10 miles an hour. One, you wouldn’t get the wheel speed that you need. You wouldn’t have the torque that you need, but you would literally cook your transmission in a couple hours. And then you wouldn’t be going anywhere. And then you’re the guy with the vultures over your head or the lady. – Right.
– So yeah, if you’re off road and you’re going under 15 miles an hour, I’d behest everyone to just put it in four low, even if you don’t need four low, because you can lock the transmit, you can lock the transfer case in four low, put it in first or second gear and torque converter is locked. You never generate heat. And you can even use like a Taser and some of the other things on the newer vehicles to monitor your transmission temperature. You can put it on one of your screens because the new Jeeps have all the screens and you can actually see what the trans temp is. And if you’re driving around and you see your transmission temp is above 200 degrees,
it’s time to change how you’re driving. – Right. – Because you don’t want to live in that unserviceable transmission. – I have not found a way to do that with the JK manual. Automatics, yes, but on the JK manual, I mean, I don’t know if it’s necessary or not, but– – You don’t have a temperature sensor on the manual. – Right.
It doesn’t care, it’s almost like the transfer case.
– So another question. – Tony from Michigan.
– Just because I don’t have the experience with the gears. – Hang on a second, Tony from Michigan is asking something. – I’ve got some buddies that they swear up and down, but they just, it’s perfectly fine to just throw their XJs in drive when they’re in four low. So that wouldn’t allow the torque converter to lock, would it? – No, no, well, when it’s in first gear, the torque converter will still lock in drive.
But as soon as you get up to enough speed, the transmission starts to shift and yeah, it starts cooking heat. And the funniest part is, is an XJ guy, because the XJ, for anybody who likes the old Jeeps, the XJ with the automatic, it was an AW4, which is just this bulletproof transmission. So it’s usually based off the 727 torque flight, but the AW4 is this incredibly strong transmission. It can handle like 800 horsepower, well above 700 horsepower.
The problem is the only thing that hurts that transmission is heat.
So yeah, if they’re driving around, then I’m in Michigan, right? And I ain’t driving an XJ, but it’s the only thing that hurts that transmission is heat. And depending on the driving they’re doing,
yeah, they’re definitely overheating. They’re probably heating that transmission up a lot more than they should.
But in Michigan, we don’t have the extreme hills like they have elsewhere. So, you know, you go to Moab, you go to Colorado, you go to some of the other places with the monster elevation changes.
That’s hell on a transmission.
You know, if it’s already hot and now you’re trying to climb a big hill,
the only thing that I could equate it to here in Michigan would be like playing in the sand dunes. But even in the sand dunes, we don’t have enough tall hills to really tax it.
Maybe if you were in like sloppy clay and driving around all day, that would be really mean to a transmission. But then you’d have the wet splash from the clay, cooling it down too. – It’s funny you say like, it always comes up at Hollyoaks when I have to go up the hills, so I throw it in four low, I stop the whole line of jukes, put it in four low, get up the hill, stop,
shift out a first second back into four high, just because cruising around the park, you don’t need four low. – Yeah, and you know, I don’t always practice what I preach. Like I did all of Hollyoaks in two wheel drive, you know, just to be a smart ass.
Like in too high.
But it’s– – Oh yeah, well stock, it would be really easy. If you have 33s of stock gearing, it’s a little hard in the next day.
– Yeah, well that was the four by E, I did it in. So I mean, it’s still had factory gearing. – You say that with the four by E, and that brought my attention because I’ve been running four high auto, which is two wheel drive until it’s needed or required. I found that’s worked really well. And I’ve done 90% of my trails there till I have an obstacle where they’re not putting four low. Is that good? – And the four by E is completely different. The transfer case and the four by E and the 392
is a completely different animal than any other transfer case. So it actually has clutches in the transfer case and it’s computer controlled.
So the four by E transfer case– – That’s where I was getting my heat issues from four high auto. No, excuse me, four high part time. That’s where I had all my heating issues. – Yep, yeah, and in those, so in the 392 or the four by E, you can actually generate a massive amount of heat in the transfer case. But that’s, you know, 1% of Jeeps have that. Probably less than 1% of Jeeps have that transfer case. So I didn’t delve on that one a lot, but same thing, four low, first, second gear, locks the torque converter, even locks the, so the torque converter in the four by E is way different than the torque converter in even a 392.
So, because yours is attached to an electric motor, so it operates way different,
but they did the same thing. They made the computer controls.
It flows more fluid and it doesn’t let the clutch just spin as much when you’re engaged in first and second gear in four low, even on the four by E. – Okay. – So let’s let, Kevin was trying to get- – If you’re going faster. – I’m sorry, Kevin was trying to get in there earlier. Kevin, did you still want to try your question or comment? – Yeah, I was just curious, because I don’t have any experience with the solid geared transfer cases. Do they use a thicker oil, like a rear end gear oil, or do they still use something that’s like ATF-ish? – No, so it depends on the brand, but most of them use like a full synthetic 90 weight.
In fact, let me, I’ll grab a bottle. I’ve got a bottle right here and I’ll tell you the exact weight.
They’re using ATF plus four, like most of the modern transfer cases, the gear to gear ones. Well, then I got 20 more feet to walk. – It’s been a while since I put the Atlas in and put the oil in it, but I don’t remember it being ATF, like transmission gears. – No, it was not ATF. It is – MT90. – Oh, that sounds familiar. Yeah. – Multimed and redline, and full synthetic oil, but it’s 90 weight. – You know, like Roger. – I was gonna say you and Roger are the same location now.
– Oh, I apologize profusely for that.
(laughing) Can you hear me now? – Yeah, hear you fine. – Okay. Yeah, so the, they use 90 weight, but they do use full synthetic and that’s the pretty gear to gear.
– Greg, you brought up an interesting comment. You said that you did Hollyoaks and two-wheel drive on the Forex-E. So I’ve got a friend I wheel with, he’s driving a, I think it’s about an 82 CJ7, and he’s on 37s and he loves to just do all trails that he can in two-wheel drive, his manual transmission. And so he’ll just brag, like, we’ll get to an obstacle and he goes, oh, I guess it’s time to go into four-wheel drive. All the rest of us are in four-low. And so he’s making it like, okay, I didn’t get my man card punched because I, but in an automatic, in my 2014 JK,
with an automatic, I would probably run risks because if I’m running at 10 mile an hour in two-wheel drive, just because I could, I’m hearing you say I could overheat. Maybe I should be in four-low for protection of my Jeep. – Yeah, for protection in your GPS. Now, if you put a trans temp sensor on, then you can monitor at will,
and you know, automater and lots of companies make them, you can put them right into the pan.
But I, so my problem is, is I do the same thing, right? I know the rules and I know what you’re supposed to do. The difference is, is like my off-roading setups,
the two that I drive the most are a TJ with an AW4, so he is my enemy,
but it has an Atlas. So I do the same thing. I will just engage, I can put it in low, but I can run just low rear-wheel drive or I can run just low front-wheel drive.
And like in Moab, that’s usually what I do. I put it in low, I put it in front-wheel drive because all the inclines and all the rocks and the ledges,
front-wheel drive always pulls you over. So that’s the same reason why I’ve told people before, I always turn my front locker on way before I ever engage a rear,
because I get better steering.
So that one’s different. And then my other one, you know, like my Mahindra, which you got to see, it’s a manual. So as a manual, I don’t ever have to worry about transmission heat.
You know, my transmission doesn’t heat up. It’s a stick shift. The only thing that’s gonna hurt that is if I ride the clutch. And as long as I don’t ride the clutch, I can pick whatever gear I want, whenever I want. – I was disappointed, Greg. I thought I was gonna get a chance to pull you out with my Jeep. And I wanted to pull that Mahindra out, but– – Well, I wasn’t gonna let that happen.
(all laughing) So I did exactly, and same thing, practice what you preach.
We went, we’re doing an off-road trail cleanup. It was wonderful. The trail was very, very sandy. And I was pulling a, you know, I don’t know, a 2,000 pound trailer with probably two or 3,000 pounds of wood in it. And I didn’t air down on a 100% sandy trail. And I ended up burying myself. So then my son and I got out and we let probably 15 pounds of air out of the tires. And then it drove right out of its own hole. So, you know– – But I offered, I offered to pull you out, Greg. I had my– – Oh, you did. You definitely offered to pull me out, I was not having that. I was, I would exhaust every opportunity I could to prove that I was a man and that I knew what I was doing. If I would have had to take a tire off and bury it in the earth and winch myself out, I would have done that before I would have let somebody else work on to me. – Words to live by. Also, Joe, I’ll mention really quick the, you can monitor your transmission temperature without having to do anything special, just using, I think it was called the off-road pages. You can– – Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. – But that’s only for newbies. – Oh, yeah, for the– – Newbies. – Okay, I was gonna say that’s something that only newbies use. But yeah, so I believe, I know it’s true on the JT and I’m almost certain it’d be the option on the JL, GLU. – It’s on the JL, yeah, you. I’ve got it both on the off-road pages and I can put it on my center between my dash where my speedometer is. I can go there and watch it. And that’s what I do off-road. Now, I just wish you could run a log so you could get a log file for all the temperatures that you were running while you were off-road.
All righty, well, let’s get to our next question. That was a good conversation on there as they usually are.
So how do you drop off a ledge? Do you put it neutral or do you leave it in gear? And again, if anybody has run through this question before, this is something I’ve never heard. Is this something that would be true for both automatic and manual? I would think it’d only be manual.
– This is no new test. – Neutral rolling off a ledge.
Go ahead.
– I’ll go ahead and answer that. That’s four low, first gear, at an angle.
– What if it’s a really steep ledge and you might need to tap second? – That’s why I have a sting.
(all laughing) – The only thing I would say, do it in neutral if you really just wanna see excitement.
(all laughing) But let the vehicle do the work for you. Again, just like what he said, four low, first gear, let it walk down, keep your feet off of the pedals.
Do not touch your brake when you’re going downhill.
Let the vehicle, if it’s in four low and locked in first gear, it can only achieve a very certain amount of speed.
That’s never too fast. Just make sure you’re engaged in gear. But everybody who’s seen all those Jeeps and all those trucks do endos and go end over end, or the rear tires come off the ground and they lose their line and then roll sideways, it’s because people stab their brake. Keep your foot off of the brake. – I wanna jump on this one. I think that’s important to also quantify what kind of ledge. Because at the park where we are in hidden falls, at least we’re going around there, I would tell you that 99% of the ledges that are going downhill, I’m in neutral. And the reason why is because it’s not a massive grade going down, it’s a three foot ledge with a slight grade going down. And I can control it much easier at the level I’m kind of going down. We’ve got video of me going down the ledge first. Very, very easy, looks almost extremely boring, right? Because there’s almost no issue there in a creek bed. And then I think Rick coming down behind me in gear and having quite a bit of fun and revving it and just screaming really loud when he bounced off a rock at the bottom. So I have no problems going down in neutral. So I haven’t got a minute. – Where are you on your brake?
– I’m not on my brake. I am on my brake, but we’re talking about at the bottom of the ledge, it’s back to flat. So I’ll go into first and just barely tip off the clutch to get it momentum going. And then I’m back into neutral and letting it roll. And then as I’m on the last little part of the ledge, I’m just barely breaking it like this as it’s rolling down until it slides off or whatever. So I’ve been using that method for quite a while and it works pretty good. Again, it’s probably very different than being out west when that ledge is part of a long downhill gradient. But in driving– – Is that manual or automatic? – Manual. – I would say in a manual, that’s kind of a bad habit to get into, but I’m not saying it’s wrong, but in a manual, it’s a bad habit to get into.
– Yeah, I think I’ve been doing it for a long time. – Excellent, it’s on brake. Where if you’re in four low and you’re letting all the power through the transmission, letting it work through the transmission, it disperses all that pressure through all four tires.
It evens out the load. Your transmission’s meant to support your vehicle. It pushes it up and down hills all the time. Your front brakes, they’re really only supposed to stop your vehicle in that type of sense and emergencies. And even then, it’s taking all the pressure off your rear end as you unload coming off the ledge. – And I think that I tried to make it clearly in the beginning on that. It’s terrain specific. In a tiny little tight creek bend, where you’re level outside of that ledge, it’s level, ledge, back to level. You’re not having a following grade. So when I talk about being a neutral, it’s not the whole way. It’s at the moment my front tires are going off at the moment my back tires are going off, is when I’m in neutral. And– – Now, do you physically put it in neutral or are you just pushing the clutch? – I just pushing the clutch. It’s in first gear, but I’m just gonna push the clutch. – Well, you’re clutching, yeah. – Well, it’s going over. But my point is, I’m not in a gear. I am free only whenever that tire is going over. Yeah, if it’s down, I get engine brake and I get all that work. But as you are rolling it over the ledge on there, I have more control because you’re trying to go with just a few inches here and there so you don’t smash down. And I’m going over there and that’s in the clutch. – I was confused when you said neutral. I thought you were taking it out of gear entirely. You’re in neutral and just riding the hill down. And I’m sitting there, so if you’re clutch, yeah, I mean, you’ve got, if you’re in four low, first gear, and it’s gonna push you too fast over that ledge, yeah, clutch and use your brake. But don’t actually take it out of gear so that you don’t have control of the vehicle. – So I typically use the clutch out and it’s kind of like my brake, right? So when I’m going down a little bit, a little bit from the momentum, I can clutch out and that’s almost like a brake a bit when I’m going down. And then extra brake when I’m at the moment that my wheels are kind of rolling off of it. But the ledge itself, when it’s falling off of it, that’s when I’m clutch down, which is essentially neutral, right? – So let me ask you guys something about an automatic transmission going off a ledge because I do not go over a ledge like that. And I’m in four low, I don’t believe, I don’t think I have it in manually set in first gear, maybe that’s the reason why, but I always let the nose down very slowly with the brake. And then I do it again, whenever the back tire is coming down the ledge, so it just doesn’t crash. – Well, yeah, so if it’s a small ledge, that’s not a big deal, but if you’re, let’s say just for safety sake, or not even for safety sake, for conversation sake, this year at Easter Jeep Safari,
you guys noticed that Wednesday, Thursday, and even summer Friday, I had almost no voice.
It was because we did a trail called, we did Moab rim and we drove up Moab rim and then we drove down Moab rim.
And the amount of times I had to yell,
take your foot off of the brake,
and you know, like car, Jeep, after Jeep, after Jeep, because as, and these are big ledges, these aren’t, right, you’re already going downhill at probably a 15 degree grade. And now you’re on a 15 to 20 foot downhill that is a 50 degree grade with ledges built into it. And people, as soon as their tires bump into the next ledge, they feel that little tiny shift of the vehicle and they stab the brake. The problem is, is when you’re pointed that severely downhill, when you stab the brake, the weight transfer happens, the front end loads up, the rear end gets loose, the rear springs push the vehicle off the edge, and that’s when vehicles fall over. – Interesting. – Right, especially Endo. So when you’re going downhill, like if we all get together at Easter Jeep again this year, and I can talk to you people into doing Moab Rim, which is one of my favorite trails,
that is going to be one of the first things that I say before we go up the hill is, when we’re coming back down, or when I tell you to, don’t touch your brake. – How about, how about tickling the brake? Can you tickle the brakes? – No, I don’t want to stab it, I just want to tickle it. – No, take your foot, slam your foot, hard into your floor, take your right foot, slam it into the trans tunnel, and drive with your big toe only. Your left foot doesn’t get used. – I don’t think I can get my big toe up to the steering wheel, but I’ll try. – Well, to the gas pedal. – Oh, okay.
– But yeah, your left foot should not be used. Do not touch the brake, do not. Going down that hill, do not touch the brake. That’s where, that’s every, almost, I would say probably 95% of the people that roll over on that trail, which during Eastern Jeep Safari, there’s usually four or five people that roll over on that trail.
Everything, 95% of them, it’s because they hit their brake, right? There’s other trails too. You do Steelbender, you do some other trails, and they have good 30 to 50 to 60 to 80 foot downhills. And when we’re talking downhill, we’re talking, you know, a hundred foot grade difference in 50 feet, you’re pointed downhill. If you stab your brake, you’re gonna flip over. – Good to know. – Just flip over to get your brake. – Good to know. – I can definitely, definitely coming down the Z-turn hit, stabbing your brake. Definitely put you over on your, on your rope. – Yep, and that’s where it happens. And almost, you know, the vast majority of the time, you know, people are coming down the Z-turn or doubles crack.
You know, those two spots, people, when they hit the bottom edge and they feel like their, you know, their front tires are down the obstacle and they hit, that’s when they stab their brake and that’s when their rear tires pass over their head and they’re on their lid.
– But Greg, you’ve been beyond– – Well, I don’t know about you guys, but I certainly learned something new today because I figured that you just, you do use the brake when you’re going down a ledge, but now it makes sense as to why you don’t. I’m glad I asked Greg that, and I just don’t know if I’ll be able to manage that.
It’s like having, having death wobble. And you know, if you slow down, the death wobble will stop, but you’re supposed to be able to speed up and it’ll stop too. I don’t know if I would have the, the, the courage to speed up to get rid of the death wobble.
I guess it only requires you to flip over once or twice before you start doing what you’re supposed to do though. So good information. I hope you guys understood what, what Greg was explaining there, because it sounds like it could save, save a lot of damage on your Jeep, which that’s what we all want. We want to have a good time with our Jeep, but we don’t want to have, take any major damage.
All right. So the, the round table continues on. You can be part of the round table and continue on with it, even after we get done recording for our Wednesday round table episode, simply by going to Jeep talk show.com slash contact and signing up for a newsletter. And you also see how you can join the zoom meeting every Tuesday at 7.30 PM. I know it’s a little confusing. We record the show on Tuesday and then we publish it on Wednesday. So if you want to be a part of the published episode on Wednesday, you can join Tuesday and either listen or interact and you’ll hear yourself on the next, the very next day.
All right. And as you may be already be aware, we have several episodes a week, five to be exact. And our Friday episode is our interviews. So coming up on our next Jeep talk show interview show, Tyler of all roads taken, and you can go to allroadstaken.com to check it out. Basically they do something similar to the Jeep honor badge, but it’s badges for anybody and everything, RVs, Toyotas, Priuses, whatever you want to stick a badge on, you can get them over at all roads taken. They even do custom badges. So, and they’re not just like sticker, like thin sticker type things. They they they’re 3D kind of like the, the honor badges, the Jeep honor badges.
All right. Well, I’ll take a moment here to do a quick mention. I think I’ve mentioned both of these folks, but just to be sure, I’m going to let you know right now, Natalie from highliftoffroad.com and Greg, you just heard him talking from unofficial use only have joined the show, the Jeep talk show as hosts. We are currently talking to another person to join the JTS Chick Chat group. And if you’re a woman and think you’d like to help host the Jeep talk show Chick Chat episode, I’d like to speak with you. Jeep talk show Chick Chat has been a very popular episode with our listeners and we’re eager to get it back in production and pump it out more great episodes. Just go to jeeptalkshow.com slash contact, if you’re interested.
And that brings us to the end of another exhilarating Jeep talk show round table episode. I want to express my deepest gratitude to our credible panel of Jeep enthusiasts for sharing their valuable insights and experiences with us today. I also want to extend a heartfelt thank you to our listeners who joined us on this adventure. Your support is what keeps us motivated to bring you the best Jeep content out there. Remember to subscribe to our Patreon page at jeeptalkshow.com slash contact to unlock exclusive perks and to join our Jeep community. So until next time, keep those Jeep running strong.
Sorry, until next time, keep those Jeeps running strong, hit those trails with confidence. And remember, it’s not just a vehicle, it’s a way of life. This has been Tony hosting the Jeep talk show round table episode, and we’ll catch you on the next ride.
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